One of the questions I have gotten since I moved to post doc city* is "do you think in your own language and then translate in your head". And I try to explain that it took about a month (give or take**) being surrounded by new language before I dreamt and thought in that language and that there is a certain strangeness in the thoughts. What I mean with that?
I mean I think in English most of the time. I describe my feelings in terms of English. Not when I speak to my old friends back home, or my family - since I speak mother tongue with them but it's sometimes like I have to translate my thoughts back into mother tongue since I have them in English (currently since I live here). Sometimes it's difficult to translate them into the "same" word and that is a bit odd. I mean, I'm not surprised when I fail to explain my feeling in English, when I know what I mean deep down, but having trouble explaining the English expression into mother tongue? Quite annoying.
It's sometimes confusing. And there is a disconnect. The feelings I describe in English isn't always as "feely" as they would be in Swedish. As to describe it, it's sometimes more like watching a movie and knowing what they say but it's not connecting as much inside as it would be if it was in Swedish. Like the experience when someone calls you a bad word in "not-your-mother-tongue" or having to curse in another language***.
I made a mistake in teaching my coworkers some of the worst words (in my language) when I started my post doc. They laughed and thought it funny and for some short time, they said them to my jokingly in the lab. I had to tell them that it wasn't going to work anymore since it wasn't a joke to me when I heard the words. Funny enough, when they said the equivalent words in English I didn't really care. They were sort of uncomfortable though... if I said their words... The test did work and we all decided to stop trying to be "funny".
Anyhow, it's interesting that it's like having two different lives - one in mother language and one in second language.
And then the kicker.
Sometimes I wake up and feel strange about my dreams. I have recollections about them being about my friends back home, the ones I've known for several years, and it's been very normal... but yet, something is odd. And then I realise that the problem is that my old friends were speaking English, and the voice over in the dream was in English as well. It doesn't make sense, since when I think about them all is in description in Swedish. And even if I can correctly translate words, they don't really mean the same...
Part of this was something I thought about when thinking about science since a lot of lingo back home is still in English (after all, we are not Icelandic or French where they make a new word but we use the English word most times and "make it Swedish") and that makes a challenge to talk about certain aspects of science in Swedish while most people know the English word anyway. Partly it was about my feelings and why it's harder to grasp certain things when they are spoken in English. Interpret people and their actions and words are hard to start with. Doing the same things in another language, a whole another problem.
It's like the second one of disconnect... I spoke to a friend back home a bit back whose mother is really ill. It was one of those times when I realised, yet again, that "I'm sorry" and "jag är så ledsen för din skull" aren't connecting the same within my heart. The latter version really hits home. I guess that is one of the reasons I sometimes rehash conversations in my head and translate them to really "feel" what was said and felt. It's just not the same when I speak my new language. It's like the defense if down in my ow language, whereas it is still a sort of wall in front of my heart in English.
I guess I could try and explain it better if I state that it could be the same that I usually need to read poems out aloud in order to feel the words. Or, I am just like a child trying to learn how to read? In any event, I need to hear the words as I read them in order to feel the emotion behind them (plus, it makes me read slower when I read aloud so maybe that is the reason?)
If nothing else, read the poems and words out loud from here and see if they make more sense... or more emotional?
Then there are those poems I read as a young woman, the ones I would like some of my newer friends to read and see if they like them as much as I do.... although I am not sure the read the same in English (the ones that exist that is). Partly maybe since poems are so hard to translate, considering the words and the context that makes the whole thing hard to make the same beautiful poem. I guess it might be the same in general when you translate although I tend to think poems are extra hard to make "right".
If interested, Edith Södergran and Karin Boye are two excellent poets whom I am not sure are found in English but are quite the quintesse of poets (imho). They are mostly on the dark side, or at least some of their romantic ones and others questioning life, but maybe that is quite the thing with poets? Emotions, mostly the bittersweet ones... but yet so eloquently written and perfectly describing the feelings and motions in order to make it easier to us who doesn't have the elegance of expression to know what to strive for? Or just expressing them?
*another country with another language than my mother tongue, and the question arise (sometimes after people ask if perhaps we speak English in my country) when established that I do have another language as my first one...
** it all depends on if I'm surrounded with only the new language or if I speak my native one a lot every day... if that makes sense? Even if I read the new paper every day, and talk to my family often, it's not the same as speaking it every morning and on and off during the day.
*** cursing has been shown to me being one of those things that doesn't connect as much inside when someone calls me a bad word. I mean, I get upset - don't get me wrong there - but the same context in native language is way more upsetting. When I was younger I spent some time in France, speaking French and almost ended up in a really bad situation since I said some very rude words that really didn't mean that much to me.... partly since it was another language. Safe to say, that wasn't true for Same thing that been explained to me by people who work with immigrants in my own country and their use of foul words in Sweden, since it doesn't connect that same way to them when they say that. In short, it's easier to curse in another language since it doesn't speak to you the same as if you were to say it in your native language.
22 comments:
Wow Chall, this hits home again here as well! Everything you describe, especially the swearing and the translation or even just the expression of emotions.
Back in Freiburg I once did a workshop with a bunch of other internationals and one of them said something like "You're a different person in every language that you speak" and I find there is definitely some truth in that.
Language is such a fascinating phenomenon, I would probably study linguistics if I could do it all over ;)
And I still want to learn Swedish.
Oh yes, I totally get the emotional difference between mother tongue and English. I am the same, if I express my feelings in English, they sound superficial to me. And not finding an appropriate word in Slovenian, that's also very familiar.
Also the same about cursing: Slovenian curses are mostly religious, so translated into English, they are like nothing to people here. And vice versa, for example, "shit" translated into Slovenian is a very light curse, especially when just used in its English form (a habit picked from US movies - we've everything subtitled, so you hear the original language). But try saying this in front of a group of English speakers and you'll see them squirming, because it will sound very strong to them.
I've an added complication of the third language when dreaming - I do still try to keep in contact with Swedish by reading news and listening to the radio, so it happens every now and then that I dream in Swedish. Which can create totally bizarre situations, when people who in real life don't understand a word of Swedish, suddenly speak it fluently in my dreams.
So yes, I get it. Totally.
I come from an English-speaking land far, far away but I find that in my dreams, my friends and family are starting to talk with an American accent. And when I dream about driving or cycling at home, it's often on the right (or incorrect) side of the road now. It's weird.
Worst of all, though, is that when I'm talking to friends or family from home and they're describing where someone's new house is or something like that, I'm having trouble remembering where particular suburbs are or what some of the roads are called. That freaks me out and shows how long it's been since I've been home for a visit.
Interesting post! I've heard other people say similar things, especially about the swearing. Ecogeoman's sister, who lives in France, says she doesn't know how to swear properly in French. When I visited, she kept catching herself swearing really crudely in English in front of her 1.5 year old kid. She always speaks to the kid in English, but since there are rarely other English-speaking adults around, she doesn't usually have to worry about not swearing in English.
I agree with Nina. Languages are SO fascinating. I would love to study second language acquisition.
PiT, I kind of wonder if you and Ecogeoman are from the same country. :)
Nina: it's good to know I'm not alone (or maybe that is making the world a scarier place? ;) ) I would still like to learn more Dutch - I understand some, but that's mainly b/c I cheat with french/german and English :)
Swedish has some "sounds" most other ppl hate! check the sj/sch/stj/skj sound (16 ways of spelling but usually sounds the same).
Pika: dear god, that sounds like a confusing dream. I admit that translating French here ended up that I translated it as a happy girl. When I was done, and looked at the person I was translating to, I met a nonplussed face and "could you translate to English please" :) I think french-swedish, not french-english. Terribly different. As for curses, I'd think slovenian sounds more like the swedish ones?! jävlar etc... then again, some ppl tell me the swedish curses are not as bad in general. I keep thinking it's because we don't go with "go f*** you mother" as more latin ones do?!
PiT: the driving must be equally confusing... I'm trying not to think too much about not knowing where the parts of the city are now - but I somehow understand the "forgetting". I blame it on getting old though...
EGF: EGM's sister soudns like she is getting in for some kind of scolding soon - or at least getting the little kid in trouble ;) it's hard though, since it doesn't really feel as harsh, imho. I have forgotten yet again how many times I end up saying FUCK since back home noone really cares about saying it.... whereas here in bible belt?!? ehh... not so much popular.... ^^
As for origin country, I've narrowed it down to like 3 various ones but leaving it there :)
and I find if nice that you guys like the post. I thought it might have sounded a bit odd... but then again, I might not be as odd as I keep thinking. No snowflake here (check lablit.com for the greatest cartoon referring to snowflakes and scientists!)
Hello,
I'm fascinated by linguistics too. I'm essentially monoglot (with enough of half a dozen European tongues to buy a train ticket and a beer), but I've noticed the same effect with swearing. I visited a Swedish lab for a few weeks, and the students chatted in Swedish and swore in American - clearly it was more comfortable for them, but it sounded very rude to me!
JaneB> yes, the swearing in American would be more prevalent. It's like it's not "really a bad word", whereas most of them would never swear like that in Swedish. Odd indeed. And yes, I would assume it felt rude to you. (As I wrote, when my post odc collegues used the BAD swedish words I felt very annoyed and uncomfortable).
Have you picked up any swear words in other languages to use?! ;)
ooh no Chall you're not alone!
Just watend to add that I always find it funny when people ask "do you translate in your head". Clearly this is from people who do not speak another language. Imagine how horrible it would be to translate every word you hear step by step in your head!
And sometimes I tend to speak in 3 languages to myself. It is easy to stick to one when you talk to someone, but when I talk to myself (which I do a lot) I just say the word in the best language for the word at the time ... Now how is that for weird ;)
Nina> I think like that too (see, are we scary or sane?!?;) )
I think the main "translate in your head" is what I noticed between first learning a language and then "really learning/knowing it". First you write the sentence on what you want to say, and then you translate it, and then you rearrange the words as they are done in that language.
Once you know a little more about the language, you should (imho) try to start with saying what you want to say in that language, then rearrange words/find words that express what you want to say - since the translation makes it less "fluent" and the words aren't always equivalent to what you'd write. (think about German, with the verb in the end - trust me when I say it's really a hard time trying to translate a sentence straigh on... :) or simple idiomatic expressions that have shown me more than ever how much I used them in Swedish and lack them in English. I'm picking them up as I go along "gaggle of geese" is a fave at the moment.)
This is of course, not easy, and not if you never have gone past a certain point of knowledge of the language. I'm just throwing my thoughts out there.
chall, Nina, I also talk to myself in three languages. Sometimes I think it's really a good thing that noone can hear what goes on in my head. :-)
And yes, I also get the "do you translate" question a lot, but always from people who do not really speak more than one language (and so have no idea how the switch in your head happens once you know enough of another language to be fluent).
Btw, chall, for me, the two most difficult things about learning Swedish were:
- the skj/sj sounds (I still can not pronounce the two correctly, they both sound the same to me!)
- idioms (things like: det gick at skogen, att gora en hona av en fjader, en storm i ett vattenglas, osv.)
What a great post and comment thread! I'm in the same boat as Jane - I'm almost completely monolingual, but I speak enough French to get by as a tourist, and (in order of decreasing ability) small amounts of German, Spanish, and Italian. But this is all so interesting - especially the idea of a much greater connection to swear words and words describing emotions when they come from your native language.
I never realised until I talked to a couple of friends a few years ago - one Dutch, one French-Canadian - that it's actually possible to lose some of your ability in your native language if you spend too much time speaking and thinking in another language. (Both women married English-speaking men, and are now raising their kids to be bilingual). I mean, I know that with foreign languages it's a "use it or lose it" situation, but I had no idea the same was true for one's first language! Fascinating!
Thanks Cath!
As for the losing words, I try and read a lot of Swedish since I don't want to "lose my own language" but I have realised that writing is pivotal in order to really sort out those words of feelings/complex thoughts/politics etc
I'm monolingual too, so this is all fascinating.
Actually, I my very first language (when I was a tiny wee one) was not English, so yeah, you can definitely lose a first language if you don't use it! My parents are from Thailand and naturally spoke Thai to me. When I started preschool, I apparently didn't know English and so they switched to English (I have no memory of any of this). Although my parents will speak a little Thai to my sisters and I, we answer back in English, don't understand very much, and have never been able to think in the language... except for when I was a very little child, I suppose.
And my mother never did teach me any curse words in her native tongue...
Bean-mom: I've heard that a few times, you learn a language as a kid and then forget about it. I had a Brazilian friend in Germany, who had been to school in Germany 3 years as a kid, and yet now he couldn't pick up anything. Weird. You'd hope that something subconciously would stick ...
I'm really happy to hear that it is perfectly normal to think or talk in 3 (or more?) languages.
And oh how it sometimes pisses me off when monolingual people don't seem to understand that you can get lost in all the languages, even if it's just two really. Similar to friends back home who make fun of me for not being able to speak Dutch absolutely fluently but with German sentence construction and an english accent. I'm not trying to be the cool world traveller, I'm just confused.
Regarding learning languages as a child, I have several international couples with small kids who all instituted the policy since birth that each parent speaks to the children in their own language at all times. It worked in that the kids (up to 7 years old now) are completely fluent in both parents' languages. And fascinatingly they never mix them up and know exactly what word belongs to which language. I think that's pretty amazing.
Nina, about talking to yourself in three languages: just today I was looking at my main to-do list at work and realised that yes, it is in fact written in three languages... I guess that makes me officially weird.
I should have mentioned that my family spent a couple of years in Germany when I was little (my Dad was taking a break from teaching French and German in high schools in England by teaching English in high schools in Germany).
I barely remember it, but I went to kindergarten there for a while. Apparently I cried every day for the first few weeks, because not only did I not understand anything anyone said to me, but I didn't even understand why - I had no concept of there being more than one language in the world!* But I soon picked up enough to communicate, and had lots off little German friends! I vaguely remember some birthday parties, mine and my friends', that (according to my Mum) featured great mutual suspicion of each other's party games and party foods!
Anyway, I was basically as fluent in German as my German-born friends by the time we left (when I was four), but then when we got back to England and I started primary school, I refused to speak German any more, or even to respond to my parents speaking German to me. No-one knows why I was so stubborn on this issue... I was usually very obedient!
Despite various family trips back to Germany over the years, I'd lost all but a few phrases by the time I went to high school. When we started German lessons at age 12, none of the vocabulary seemed familiar. However, I found the grammar and word order quite natural, while my classmates really struggled with it. So I guess that stuck, somehow, even though the actual words didn't!
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*My sister, who later went on to do a degree in French and Italian, once confessed that when she was little, she thought that the people in the countries we visited on vacation (France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Austria, Luxembourg) only spoke "funny" for the tourists' benefit, in the same way that our home town hired people to dress up as vikings and wander around the city centre interacting with tourists in the summer. She assumed the foreign waiters/waitresses/campsite staff/museum staff/shop staff all spoke English to each other when no tourists were watching. Mind you, I thought Holland was always dark until I was about 6, because we only ever drove through it at night on the way to or from the cheap overnight ferry crossings!
Very nice post, Chall. Too bad I am late to the party...
My husband and I have a mother tongue other than English but my children speak only English. It was basically impossible to teach them our language, with them being in daycare all the time and us not having any friends around who spoke the language. Now even my hub and I talk to each other in English most of the time.
Anyway, about swear words: I think their emotional effect comes from taboo, and taboos are internalized while growing up. When you pick up swear phrases as an adult in another language they can never have the same potency to you as they do to those who grew up with the no-nos. My language has some very juicy and completely untranslateable swear words, while traslations of the English ones such as "shit" or "FU" would be very bland in my language. But I have learned to appreciate the cleansing power of yelling fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck! :)
Wow. I really loved this post.
Great post chall! After working in labs for so long, I now have more friends where English is a second language than friends where English is the first (and usually only) language. This sounds very similar to the things that they say.
GMP/Girlpostdoc and MXX: THanks so much! not sure why I didn't respond back in the day.... but I feel very happy people liked the post.
GMP: I think the taboo is probably very spot on. I still can't say those two really bad words, even if I techincally could say them at work now since noone would understand... but nooooo ;)
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